Conquer Complacency Improve Performance Safeguard Success

Conquer Complacency Improve Performance Safeguard Success

Tim Fitzpatrick
Our special guest today believes achieving success is not the end goal, keeping it is. He is going to share his experience varied experience in business, marketing, and law enforcement to help you recognize complacency in your business and life and how to fight it with vigilance every single day. Hi, I am Tim Fitzpatrick with Rialto Marketing, where we believe marketing shouldn't be difficult. All you need is the right plan. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to tune in. I am really excited to have Len Herstein, who is the author of Be Vigilant with Me today. Len, welcome and thanks so much for taking the time.

Len Herstein
Thanks, Tim. Great to be here.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yes, I'm looking forward to digging into this. Before we do that, I want to ask you some rapid fire questions. Just help us get to know you a little bit. You good to jump in with both feet?

Len Herstein
Absolutely. Let's go.

Tim Fitzpatrick
When you're not working, how do you like to spend your time?

Len Herstein
I actually enjoy playing poker. If I'm not with my family or working, I like to try and play some poker.

Tim Fitzpatrick
You know, dude, I was never good at paying enough attention to what was happening with all the cards to ever be good at poker.

Len Herstein
I like to play with guys like you.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, exactly. Take my money. That's why I don't play. What's your hidden talent?

Len Herstein
You know, it's funny and we'll get into the law enforcement stuff, but I had no idea about this until I got into law enforcement. But I have a dog's nose for certain sense. And I can pick up the smell of alcohol or the smell of marijuana from like a mile away. I have no idea.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Well, in law enforcement, that is a very good talent to have.

Len Herstein
Yeah.

Tim Fitzpatrick
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Len Herstein
I think the best piece of advice came from a speaker I've worked with. His name is Bruce Turkel and he talks about this concept of all about them and thinking about making sure that everything you're doing in business and marketing is about them and not about you. Right. And if you keep that mindset at the forefront, more often than not, you'll make the right decision.

Tim Fitzpatrick
What's one thing about you that surprises people?

Len Herstein
Mostly that I'm a cop. Yeah. That surprises people for sure.

Tim Fitzpatrick
What does success mean to you?

Len Herstein
It's interesting because my whole thing is about success and keeping it. I think people get confused that success means you always have to be striving for more and being more and more successful. To me, success is different for everybody. But what it's really about is finding your spot where you're happy and content and healthy and just, well, all the way around.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. Where's your happy place?

Len Herstein
I love being on the beach. I love the ocean. I love the water. So when we get time and we can do stuff like that, I love being on the beach.

Tim Fitzpatrick
But you were in Colorado, like, down the street from me. How did you end up in Colorado and you love the beach?

Len Herstein
Well, my wife loves the mountains.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Okay.

Len Herstein
There we go. I love the mountains, too.

Tim Fitzpatrick
My wife and I are the exact opposite. So she's the beach lover. I am the mountain lover. So at some point, I'm going to be at the beach. What qualities do you value in the people you spend time with?

Len Herstein
I think first and foremost is honesty and loyalty and dependability and empathy.

Tim Fitzpatrick
So tell us a little bit more. I want to learn a little bit more about your past. We had touched on it. Did your book come out last year?

Len Herstein
October.

Tim Fitzpatrick
October. So October of last year Be Vigilant, but you have a lot of experience previous to this. Fill us in a little bit. Tell us a little bit more about the types of people that you're working with and helping at this point.

Len Herstein
Yeah. So the people that I'm helping at this point are businesses and individuals, both large and small. Not large and small individuals, but large and small businesses. Well, large and small individuals, too. Yeah. My focus now is helping businesses, teams, divisions, individuals protect the success they've worked so hard to achieve. So it spans industries, it spans categories, it spans geographies. But the people that I'm helping and working with have a common goal of understanding that they've worked hard to achieve success. And the very nature of that success puts it at risk. And so that's what I help people understand is understand the dangers that lie within that past success. And how do we make sure that we don't fall victim and fall vulnerable to the evils of complacency.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Does a lot of this methodology come from not just your business experience, but your experience in law enforcement?

Len Herstein
Yeah, 100%. So real quick. I mean, I've had a windy path, as you kind of mentioned. I started off in consulting, and then I moved into consumer package goods brand marketing. I worked for Campbell Soup and Bisco and Coca Cola and base business and innovation. And then I started Manage Camp, which produces the annual brand Managed Camp conference. After years of going to conferences that I wasn't enjoying and I was going home early from, I decided to start my own. And we did that for the last 19 years, producing marketing conferences for folks. About seven years ago, I became a reserve Sheriff's deputy. I wanted to give back. I wanted to volunteer. This opportunity came up. I went through a full Academy. I went through 440 hours of field training. I became a certified peace officer in the state of Colorado. And I thought that was going to be really different from anything else I'd ever done. But right away, I started seeing that there are things I was learning that I could apply back to my business life to my personal life. And the core thing was this idea that complacency kills. And we talk about that a lot in law enforcement, because a lot of times, most of the time things go right. But when they go wrong, they go really wrong. And all those times that they go right can lull us into this sense of complacency. And complacency kills. But I started thinking complacency kills businesses, it kills brands, it kills teams, it kills organizations, it kills relationships, both personal and professional. And so that experience in this last seven years with law enforcement, combined with my 30 plus years of business, that's where this kind of concept came about in terms of be vigilant, which is all about understanding the risks of complacency and how to identify and fight it with vigilance.

Tim Fitzpatrick
As you talk about complacency, I'm sitting here thinking of a business example, and the one that comes to my mind most is Blockbuster. Their business could have transitioned and they could have owned what is happening. You think of the Netflixes, the Redboxes and gosh, when I was a kid, Blockbuster was like it. And they got complacent, and they were not open to the changes that were happening in the market.

Len Herstein
Yeah. And so two things. Number one is I love the story of Blockbuster and Netflix for an unexpected reason. So everybody does what you've done, which is that's the first thing that comes to mind. Obviously, it's such a great example of a business that was so successful that it became overconfident. And that's what complacency does to us. It creates overconfidence, that makes us unaware of threats. It glosses over them. So a lot of people think complacency is laziness. Complacency is not laziness. Laziness is a choice. So laziness is I have the ability to do something, and I'm going to choose not to do it because I don't want to put any effort. Complacency is rarely a choice. Complacency is something that rides underneath the surface and feeds on our overconfidence. So it's a great example. But my favorite part of that story and how it also plays a lot into my book is it's a great example, also from Netflix's side of how you fight complacency moving forward, there's a piece where Blockbuster was complacent and Netflix took over. But then everything Netflix has done since then, a lot of it revolves around self disruption and being ahead of the change that's coming. A lot of that has allowed them to fight their own complacency and remain vigilant. So to me, that's a two sided story. Part of it is what happened underneath the iceberg and then what else happened afterwards.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Well, if you look at Netflix, I love how you bring up this fact. They're fighting complacency. Right. And you can see that with them when they first started. Right. I mean, they were doing DVD stuff. Then it started to transition to online streaming.

Len Herstein
Streaming. Right.

Tim Fitzpatrick
But it was streaming other people's content. And now a lot of what they're doing is their own content. So they weren't complacent, just going, hey, it's good enough that we're starting to take market share and we're streaming other people's content. How else can we continue to disrupt this market and continue to grow our business?

Len Herstein
Yeah. The way I talk about that in a book, I have this concept I call getting off the X. And it's something that we talk a lot about. And law enforcement is moving because what we are able to do is disrupt the decision making process of our competitors. So we talk about this thing called the OODA Loop O O DA, which stands for observe, orient, decide, and act. It comes from military, and it's a way of understanding our decision process. And the thing is, we observe, we orient, we decide, we act. If we're partway through the process and there's new stimuli to observe, our brain goes back to the beginning, right. It's the reason why in sports, you see ankle breaking videos, right. Where someone's running this way and all of sudden a the guys because their brain already decided they're going that way. Now there's new information and they've got to reprocess it. This is exactly what Netflix has done, right. They continue to get off the X and what happens? Everybody else has to play catch up, right? So move into streaming, and then you've got a bunch of streaming services that are playing catch up. Everybody needs to get to the streaming services, especially once we got into what's happened in the last couple of years. But then they go, like you said, to making their own content. Right. And now everybody has to figure out how to make their own content because the content that Netflix is making is not available to anybody else. They got to create their own content. Now, some people are more situated for that than others, like Disney is already making their own content.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Right.

Len Herstein
The more that they self disrupt, the more that they get off the X, the more that they remain strategically unpredictable, the more they stay ahead.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I love that. Strategically unpredictable. Now, we may have kind of already touched on this. Would you say success can be deadly in business, leadership relationships, primarily because of this complacency. Is there anything that we haven't touched on with complacency that you want to make sure comes to the surface here?

Len Herstein
Yeah, I think a concept that helps people wrap their minds around it is this idea. I talk about survivorship bias, and people ask, like, why is success so dangerous? And it really comes down to survivorship bias. So if you're of my age, everybody has whatever age you are. You've seen the memes, right? I survived trying to for me, it would be like I survived lead paint and riding around in a station wagon backwards with no seatbelt and smoking cigarettes and this and that. Right? Click, like if you did too. Well, the reality is if you did not survive any of those things, you are not around to click like. Right. So the only people that are around to click like are the ones who made it through to the other side. And we have a tendency when we make it through to the other side, to attribute our success to what we did. Right. We'll say, well, gosh, I made it through that, right. I didn't have concussion protocols when I was a kid and I was fine. So what that does is that survivorship bias, that constant faulty reinforcement, that what we're doing, led to our success and doesn't have to change because it's what we've always done and it always got us here. That survivorship bias makes us overconfident, makes us miss the micro failures, makes us miss the signals that change is coming, makes us miss what our customers or consumers or this whole thing, the great resignation. People talk about that as if it's a pandemic thing. That is not a pandemic thing. That was a complacency thing on employers taking for granted the power they had until that power was no longer there, right? So this survivorship bias is what generates the danger that comes from past success.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Got it. In business, we got to learn from what's gone right, what hasn't and what we can do moving forward. Do you have standard assessment guidelines that you follow to help people accomplish this?

Len Herstein
Yeah. So I don't have standard assessment guidelines, but what I do have is this idea of what we all should be doing. And this also stems from my law enforcement background. Anybody with military background has the same thing we do briefing and debriefing. Right. So what I'm going to focus on here and what you're talking about is debriefing. Okay. So at the end of whatever you want to call it, missions, projects, major events, we all get together and we do a debrief. And if you talk to people in business, they would probably say, yeah, we do that, too. But if you dig a little bit deeper, you realize that most of the time that only happens when something goes wrong, when the results are negative. Right.

Tim Fitzpatrick
We're not doing it when things have gone well.

Len Herstein
Right. Because when things go well, we pat ourselves on the back, we have a party and we move on. And the reality is not doing those debriefs and doing them only dependent on outcome. So when we do them, we do them outcome independent, right?

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah.

Len Herstein
So whether it was a perceived success or failure, we still get everybody together. We still go through all the things there are eight things that I talk about in the book to make a successful debrief. One of them is doing it all the time and doing it regardless of outcome and making sure people are aware that you're going to do it regardless of outcome. Because what happens is we find that even within successes, there are micro failures. There are successes that could have been more successful. Right. There are successes that were by accident or because of someone else's actions more than our own. Right. And so we might have gotten lucky. People are able to wrap their minds around. When I talk about sports. Here in Denver, I would say be a Peyton Manning. Probably anywhere else in the world. I'd probably say be a Tom Brady other than Indianapolis, I guess. And I would say these are types of people. And this happens in sports a lot. Regardless of whether we won or lost the game, we're still going to go through the film. We're still going to understand, did we win because of everything we did, or did we win for other reasons? And what could we have done differently? Right. And you get everybody involved, regardless of rank or position or tenure and titles get left at the door and you have an honest discussion. And we talk about what went right, what went wrong, what went right, what went right by accident, what went right but could have gone better. Right. And we talk about those things. And so it's not necessarily about here's the specific metrics. It's going to be different for everybody. But the process of going through that, number one, just by everybody knowing that you're going to go through it makes everyone more aware. And so one of the things I talk about is when I talk about complacency, sometimes people get a little nervous. What's the opposite of complacency? Paranoia. I don't want to be looking over my shoulder all the time. That doesn't sound fun. And I reassure him, I said, the opposite of complacency is not paranoia. It's vigilance. And the difference is paranoia is based in fear, and vigilance is based in awareness. It's about being intentional and present and aware. And that's what I teach people. This is not something that has to become a burden or scary or depressing. This is just something that we can build into our processes to make sure that we are creating the situation that allows us to be most aware.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Let me make sure I got this right. Paranoia based in fear. Vigilance is based in awareness?

Len Herstein
Correct.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Got it. I love that. That's a really key distinction, because it's only when we're aware of things that we can actually take action on them.

Len Herstein
Exactly. And when we get into autopilot, when we get that over confidence that allows us to do certain things that without thinking about them, that creates that lack of awareness that breeds complacency.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Well, what we just talked about with debriefing is a perfect example. Right. If we're not doing debriefing when the project went great, we're not bringing to the surface certain things that we probably should be aware of that we could adjust to continually improve iterate, whatever you want to call it.

Len Herstein
Absolutely.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. I love that. Any other quick tips on Debriefing. I know you touched on, hey, we need to do Debriefing every time, not just when things go wrong. What other quick tips do you have for us there?

Len Herstein
Yeah. So you want to do it every time you want to do it. And every time you define like, what is the level of thing that we want to debrief, right? Yeah. Debrief like everything that you do, but there's certain levels of things, but you want to do it all the time. You want to do it, like immediately, as immediately as possible. You want to do it right after the event. You don't want to schedule it a week or two down the road. Right. You want to do it while it's fresh. You want to again, as I mentioned, make sure that everybody is involved, that was part of this thing, regardless of title or tenure or whatever, you're going to find that a lot of times some of the most useful things that you hear are from your newest people who don't have years and years of experience that are clouding their view. Right. So those are the big ones. You want to make sure that you share your learnings broadly so that it's not just this team in the room that gets the benefit of it, but everybody in the organization or the broader team does. So those are four of the top ones.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Got it. Debriefing, obviously, is one way that companies can stay and be vigilant. What other ways can we be vigilant in our business?

Len Herstein
So there's ten of them in the book. We talked about Debriefings. We talked a little bit about getting off the X and remaining strategically unpredictable. One of the other ones that I talk about is this idea of threat awareness is really having someone or some people within the organization or team or whatever it is whose job it is to remain threat aware, to have that 360 degree view, to see where those next threats are coming from. If you're in the solar industry and you were used to selling door to door in flea markets or by phone or whatever, and your competitors, you knew that your competitors were these three other local solar companies. Did you see Tesla coming in and kind of changing what this industry is all about? Right? Or did you get so laser focused that all you saw was your two or three competitors that you're used to? And that's the same in any business. We can get into that habit where we're doing our yearly plans, it's time for our yearly plans. So we get together and we have our same competitors that we look at and we do our SWOT analysis, but we're not really keeping that constant look out for what are the things that we need to be aware of? Where is the change coming from, from any of our constituents, whether it be our employees or our customers or vendors or our partners? Or the government or the economy or the environment. These are all things that we have to be aware of. So threat awareness is another one. Another one that I think is really super important is being able to articulate the why. So what I talk about and this is directly learned from law enforcement. And we know what's happened in the last decade in law enforcement. There's been a lot of talk about this idea of like, we have to be able to articulate, why are we doing what we're doing? Why are we making that stop? Why are we talking to that person? Why do we do this? Why do we do that? It's the same in business. If you find that you've accumulated enough power, where your answer to the why, if you're truly being honest is because we can or because we said so or because we've always done it that way. Those are real good clues that you're being complacent. Right. Your why has to be drawn back to another thing I talk about, which is your purpose. Really understanding your purpose and having everybody in your organization understand your purpose. And your purpose isn't to make money like that's not the purpose. The purpose is what is your role in this world? What are you trying to accomplish? What value do you bring? And if everybody understands what your true purpose is, then when you ask, why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? You can come up with articulated reasons that tie back to your purpose. It's like we're going to have all our employees come back and work in the office. Well, why? Well, because that's what we do. Right. We work in an office. We always work in an office. I need everybody to work in the office. But you have to almost be like a child. Right. Why are we doing that? Is it the best thing for our employees? Is it the best thing for our business? Is it the best thing for anybody? What is the why? If you can't articulate the why, it's a good sign that you're being complacent.

Tim Fitzpatrick
One of the things I want to pull out, something you said here, because I hear this all the time, and to me, this is a sign that we are being complacent. If we're saying, well, we're doing it this way because it's the way we've always done it. Are there other statements that people make that are really good sign that they're in a place of complacency?

Len Herstein
Yeah. Like the biggest one is because we can. Right. So why are you charging that price to your customer? Well, because we can. Because they'll pay it. Right. If you're an airline before all this stuff happened, why do you have to pay an ordinary change fee? Right. If you've got seats on the plane and it doesn't reflect the cost of actually what's going on? Well, because we can. Right. Why if you were changing your cell phone plan, did you have to pay an exit fee of hundreds of dollars to get out of your contract? Because they could. Because they didn't have a choice. Those are not good reasons. Those are reasons that work in the short term until the person that you have power over, you no longer have power over them. I equate it to your children, right? You can say because I said so for a long time until they realize that, no, that doesn't work for me. Right? I don't have to listen to you anymore. Well, whenever they don't have to listen to you anymore, you need a better why. And if you wait until that time, there's all sorts of other things that go along with it. A lack of trust, a lack of loyalty, a lack of other things. When you abuse that power of the why. And that all gets back to accountability and transparency, which is a couple of other things that I talk about in the book and the importance of that.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Got it. I want to talk about metrics a little bit. You and I both know in marketing there are a ton of metrics. A lot of them don't mean a darn thing. They just confuse people. In your book, you touch on using the right metrics in the right way to gauge performance and curb overconfidence. Can you touch on this a little bit and break that down?

Len Herstein
Yeah. It's funny, because metrics are the rationale behind metrics is to inform us and make us more aware. But what they do oftentimes is they have a tendency to lead to our overconfidence if we use them incorrectly. So the way I talk about a book and how it relates back to my law enforcement experience is just because you don't see blood doesn't mean there's no bleeding. Right. So if I was to come up on somebody who didn't appear to have any injuries, but something's going on and there's no blood coming out, and I just assume they're okay and ignore the fact that there could be internal bleeding that I can't see, I'm using the wrong metrics. I'm using the wrong metrics to make that decision, which makes me unaware of the potential dangers. And it happens in business all the time. Right. So there's three main ways that we use metrics incorrectly that will lead us down the wrong path. One of them is that we use what Eric Reese would call vanity metrics. So these are metrics that make us feel good, but don't tell us anything real. Right. Like how many clicks we got on an email. It doesn't matter, right. It doesn't matter how many opens you got on your email. If nobody actually went to your website and did anything substantial, those opens don't mean anything. Right. They're a way to pat yourself on the back and be like, oh, look at the great subject line I did. It doesn't mean anything if you're not tying it back to a metric that really counts. And we do this all the time. We have a lot of vanity metrics. I'm sure you're thinking of some now and others in the audience are thinking of what metrics are you using right now that make people feel good but don't really tell you the real story? The second way that we misuse metrics is that we use too many of them. We load them on, we keep Loading on. We never drop them off. We always like, here's another metric, here's another metric, here's another metric. The more metrics we have, the more clouds the system. If anybody read the book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, he talks about this story with Chicago Hospital back in the day where they were having a hard time figuring out they were misdiagnosing a lot when people were coming into the emergency room, whether they had whether they're having a heart attack or not having a heart attack. And the reality is they were looking at a lot of different metrics. They were taking readings, they were doing this. They were also looking at the person, what age are they, what weight are they? What height are they? What race are they? They're using a lot of metrics in there. And the reality is that a lot of those metrics were clouding the issue as opposed to solving the issue. And once they realized that and they narrowed it down to four metrics that you didn't even have to see the patient, they became significantly more accurate in understanding whether someone was actually presenting with a heart attack or not without ever seeing the patient. Because those things that they were looking at, well, that patient is overweight. They're probably having nothing to do with it. Had nothing to do with it. Those extra metrics were clouding their judgment.

Tim Fitzpatrick
It was more efficient. And my guess is it was faster, too.

Len Herstein
Oh, yeah. Faster, more efficient, more cost effective. All those things and save people's lives. Right. Like, the most important thing. So that's number two is the more metrics you have, you want to Whittle it down to the ones that actually help you make decisions, as opposed to give you this false information that makes you overconfident. The doctors would come in, they would look at somebody, and before they even saw the measurements would already be decided. They would have this overconfidence, that they could decide by looking at that person whether they're having a heart attack or not. The third way that we misuse metrics is that we set up metrics that are easy to game, that invite corruption. It's a strong word, but it happens a lot. With sales teams, with marketing teams, with whatever we create metrics that encourage people to game the system, to get paid off because that's how they're being paid. Right. So we want to make their compensation tied to how many sales calls they make yeah. Well, that's easy to game, right? That's easy to game. Or you can work things out with clients to do certain things. The story I tell is I call it the Cobra effect. And basically in colonial India, they had a Cobra problem and they offered a bounty for every dead Cobra that they brought in or every Cobra that they caught. Well, what the enterprising people of India did is they started breeding Cobras. Right. They started breeding Cobras so that they could then get the bounty for the Cobra. At the end of the day, they did away with the program, all these bread Cobras were released into society, and they ended up with a much larger problem than they ever had before because they came up with a metric that was easily gained.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. We have a client right now that we're doing a marketing blueprint for, which is basically give them a baseline of where they're at, what they need to do moving forward and exact same thing. They've been tracking metrics on marketing and sales activities. And the metrics that they were tracking were really encouraging people to do what was easiest. In this case, it was a very specific activity. Yet that activity is generating the fewest amount of leads.

Len Herstein
It happens, right? We've seen it in education. Right. When they started moving towards schools funding from the state was tied to tests, right. Standardized tests that had to be taken. The school started teaching to the test. It wasn't the best thing for the students. It wasn't the best thing for anything. But they teach the test, they get better test scores or they figure out how to manipulate the test scores so that they get more funding. When metrics are set up to encourage gaming, they're going to lead you down the wrong path and they're going to end up giving you the wrong information, a false sense of security, a false sense of overconfidence.

Tim Fitzpatrick
How do you ensure that the metrics you use can't be gained like that? Trial and error.

Len Herstein
A lot of it is trial and error. But I wouldn't say it's trial and error. I would say it is scenario planning. Right. So a lot of times I like to tell people, I don't really believe that there's a thing called unintended consequences. There's just consequences that weren't considered. Right. And so someone might look at that Cobra thing and say that was an unintended consequence, or someone might look at schools and what's happened with the testing and say that's an unintended consequence, that the kids are being taught to the thing or with your thing. It's an unintended consequence. But that's a euphemistic way to say we missed it. Right. We didn't think about what could play out when we do this. And so scenario planning is a big thing, and we do this a lot longer. If this then that right. If this happens, what's going to happen? What's going to happen next and what could potentially happen next and how would we handle those things? So a lot of it just really comes down to diligent planning.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. Got it. I love it. Len, this has been a fantastic conversation. You've seen me feverishly taking notes. Any last minute thoughts you want to leave us with on being vigilant? And I'm actually going to for those that are watching, I'm going to put your book up on the screen here. Your book is Be Vigilant. What thoughts you want to leave us with, Len?

Len Herstein
Yeah. The main thought that I think is what drives it home for me is that success is not the end goal. Keeping it is. Yeah. And so there's a lot of advice out there. There's a lot of stuff out there about how to become successful. There's not a lot about what to do once you get there. And that's what this is all about. None of this stuff is rocket science. It will immediately make sense to you. Just like in our conversation right now, you'll immediately start thinking of things in your own life. And again, this is not just professional either. This is personal. This has to do with our relationships in our house, with our friends, with our family. It's easy to get complacent there, too. And you look at a successful marriage that ends after 20 something years, and you question why a lot of that can be tied back to complacency. And so there's a lot to be learned there. But I think the key point is it's not about the success, it's about keeping it.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I love it. Len, thank you so much, man. I really do appreciate it. Where can people learn more about you?

Len Herstein
Yeah. So my website is Lenherstein.com. It's scrolling there on the bottom of the screen. You can get me there or you can reach out to me directly on LinkedIn. I love when people do that. It's just going to be Len Herstein on LinkedIn app. You can find a book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Apple Books, wherever you buy your books. And yes, those are the three best ways.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Awesome. For those that are listening, it's Len L-E-N and then Hersteinn H-E-R-S-T-E-I-N. So Len obviously knows what the heck he's talking about. Go check them out, Lenherstein.com, or find him on LinkedIn. Again, Len, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate it. I know people are going to get a ton of value from this conversation. For those that are watching, listening. Thank you so much. I do appreciate you. I am Tim with Rialto Marketing. If you are struggling with your marketing, you're not sure what those next right steps are, I want to encourage you to go to growthmarketingplan.com. That's growthmarketingplan.com. You can download our 90 day Marketing Plan kit, all the downloads, tools, resources you need to put together your marketing plan and start taking action today are right there. And you can also always find us over at rialtomarketing.com which is R-I-A-L-T-O marketing.com thanks so much. Till next time. Take care.