Welcome to the Rialto Marketing podcast. Today's episode is a revenue acceleration series interview where we talk to seven figure B2B professional service firm owners that are actively trying to grow their business and get to the next level. We talk about the good, the bad and the ugly so that you can learn from their experience.


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Create A Business That Runs Without You

Tim Fitzpatrick
Welcome to the Rialto Marketing podcast. Today's episode is a revenue acceleration series interview where we talk to seven figure B2B professional service firm owners that are actively trying to grow their business and get to the next level. We talk about the good, the bad and the ugly so that you can learn from their experience. Hi, I am Tim Fitzpatrick with Rialto Marketing, where we believe you must remove your revenue roadblocks to accelerate growth, and marketing shouldn't be difficult. Thank you so much for taking the time to tune in. I am super excited to have with me Matthew Tinney from Windows Management Expert. Matt, welcome and thanks for being here.

Matt Tinney
Thank you, Tim. Happy to be here.

Tim Fitzpatrick
It's awesome. I'm looking forward to digging into this. I know we are not recording video because we don't want to run into any issues. This is our second time around. Tech makes things interesting, doesn't it?

Matt Tinney
Never a dull moment.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Never a dull moment. I want to start off by asking you a few rapid fire questions. Are you ready to jump in?

Matt Tinney
Yes.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Okay. So very quickly, what do you do and how long have you been doing it?

Matt Tinney
I am by trade, a Microsoft Management Expert, and I've been doing that work for about 25 years. I help clients just really automate their endpoint management and security.

Tim Fitzpatrick
In those 25 years, what's the most important lesson you've learned in running your business?

Matt Tinney
Well, I think the biggest one is bringing in a partner from the beginning that is aligned to things that I don't have expertise on. I'm more of the technical, the engineering, having a person that was in step with me that did the areas that I'm not as good at, maybe, from the beginning, might have served the business a little bit better. But these things you learn over the course of time. So for the first eight years, I had just me and a couple of people consultants. And then in 2016, I brought on Vikki Moore, who's now our CEO. But I don't know, maybe I wouldn't have been ready for that type of partnership to bring on someone that would be running the company as the CEO. So I guess it's all in hindsight. But I think it may have accelerated the business's growth by having someone that had a different skill set that was more on the business strategy side, all these things that you fumble your way through. I feel like if you had a partner that did those skills, you might be better off on getting out of the gate quicker.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Got it. So I know, look, we've all had ups and downs in our businesses. You've been in business a long time. Do you have any mantra or something motivational you say to yourself or you share with your team to help push through those times?

Matt Tinney
Yeah, everything happens for a reason. I'm an energy person. So whenever there's something that doesn't go as planned or something shows up, I always pause and ask, what is the purpose for this happening? Because there is a purpose, whether or not we want to see that or whether or not we're open to seeing it. And rather than being upset and angry and wherever we go, emotionally, it's really about taking a step back. Sometimes taking a nap and then coming back to it is literally the best thing because firing back an email or disputing and going back and forth is not going to serve you in the long run. So in the short run, it's really about taking a step back, asking. Everything is happening for a reason. And also coming at things with an open mindset, I think is probably the most important thing because you can get so in the bottom of a coffee cup that you can't see outside in. And that's when your viewpoint and your perspective becomes very... It's like the glass is half full and you can't even see that if you're so emotionally entangled in what happened and why it happened. So I do. I think sometimes it's better to take a step back to ask yourself that question to be coming at it with an open mindset. And also, most importantly, having the right people on your leadership team that also share those same values of being open minded. Because at the end of the day, things are going to happen. They're going to keep happening. And if you have that mindset of, Okay, it's happening for a reason. Let's take a time out. Let's park this item, and let's look at it at another time instead of trying to beat our heads against the wall. And that never goes well.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I was listening to something this morning and the guy was talking about life doesn't happen to you. It happens for you.

Matt Tinney
Oh, my gosh. Is that Peter Kron?

Tim Fitzpatrick
It's Benjamin Harding.

Matt Tinney
Okay. Yeah, I'm into all that. That's the philosophy, right? It's looking at the perspective.

3 Lessons You could Learn from Bringing in a CEO

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, I love that. So you touched on this. In 2016, you started to take yourself out of the CEO role in 2020 with Vikki stepping into that role. What are your top three learning lessons from that experience?

Matt Tinney
First off, I'll go back to being open minded, being listening to what people are saying with an open mind. It's a lot more difficult if you've been in it for so long. And when someone else is coming at it from a different perspective, it might actually trigger certain things in you. And so I think that's a big one that I've learned time and time again. Because there is a cost when you're not open minded with your leadership team. There is a cost. And it's not just in the business, it's personal. It becomes like you get entangled energetically, and so it can almost suck the life out of you. So I feel that having an open mind is one of the biggest things. The second thing is to really allow people to come up with solutions to items and issues within the day to day and within the organization, rather than someone coming to you with an issue, come to me with a solution or proposed solution. Because at the end of the day, if you're having a call, that's time away from what your priorities are. And so I just see that that has helped in a lot of ways become more efficient to be using our time more effectively and to also respect each other in what we're saying. Because it is. It's about respecting but also being open minded. And the only way to do that is to have people draw solutions to what they view as problems. And they might not have everything from A to Z figured out, but at least they have an idea or they've done their research, right? And then they come to the table with, Hey, this is the problem. Here's the proposed. This is what I recommend. As opposed to just doing a dump and run. Hey, here's an issue. This is your company. You got to fix this. See you later. That's not going to get you to the next level. So it's about having people trained and what and how you expect things to be handled. I don't mean that in a negative word, but it really is. It's about training people on how you want them to come to you and how you want to be leading and having those lines of communication open. And then the third one Yeah. Well, I'm trying to think of the question that you just asked because now I forgot.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, so what top three lessons bringing your CEO in? So we've got being open minded, allowing people to come up with solutions to the problems that they see. And then the third one?

Matt Tinney
Yeah. I think then is go with your gut. I know that's an overrate. If you feel that thing is off, it is off. It really is. And anytime I felt or looked or didn't communicate or withheld communication or was resigned or cynical about something, it always ends up showing up later. And it's never that could have been addressed upfront and just from a simple communication. So that is going with your gut, the third one.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I really like the second one, allowing people to come up with solutions. I think it is a lot of our immediate gut reactions when somebody comes to us with the problem to just give them a solution and let them go off and do it. But if we don't allow our team to come to us with solutions, Hey, I've got this problem. Here's what I think we should do. We're really not allowing those people to grow at all. And I knew early on when I was in distribution, I tended to just give people the solution. And that was something. And at the time, I can't remember where I heard it, but I had that same advice. I really started to focus on that more. It makes a huge difference because as the business owner, the last thing you want to be is the crutch where everybody comes. People need to be able to create the solutions. Otherwise, they're completely dependent on you. Most of us don't want businesses where we're the bottleneck. So I love that.

Matt Tinney
I guess the word empowerment is applicable.

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The ROI of Outsourcing Your Marketing

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, absolutely. I know one of the things that we talked about in the pre interview was that you used to outsource your marketing. I think if I remember correctly, you were working with an agency of some kind, but you decided to take it inhouse and hire with a remote team overseas. Can you walk us through why you made that change and what's working well and not working well with that?

Matt Tinney
Yeah. So I think for us and everyone's experience is different is when you look at the return on investment and you look at the time, and then you look at all the things that weren't done through that month, that if we're done would provide a tremendous value in return on investment. And so it was just more about ROI and being able to do more so that we could grow and expand our marketing and our different channels and help expand beyond where we were with the current set up. And so I think it started with having one person that we had been working with that was offshore and building that relationship. And then building outside out from there, right? They know someone. It's like how we do things, right? It's like referral. It's all referral. It's all relationship. So it's that same model. And we have tried this before, but we never had the person, right? The anchor. And so we have a person that manages the team because there are a lot of nuances and there are a lot of communication nuances working with Offshore. But if you have someone that is in the dialect in that country that can run as a conduit back and you're having those daily stand up calls together, then you cut out the nuance of things being broken down in communication. That is the big thing. But the other big thing is having a team that it can facilitate the whole aspect of marketing and building it out. So digital and web content and then SEO, those are the three big things. And also having oversight of the offshore team. That's another big thing is you have to have checks and balances. You can't just rely on one team. You have to have oversight. And so that's another big thing, especially from an investment perspective, to make sure that you're getting the return on your investment. You're getting good content, you're getting what you expect, and that you're checking it with what are the leads? What's the number of leads you're getting? What is your SEO? What are you ranking on keywords? All this thing. Are we adding content that's adding value? What are the top blogs? So I feel like all of that stuff we've already invested into, but then we took it up a notch by having our own team. And then the beauty of that is that engine becomes a recruitment engine because we do staffing. See, the reality is that the days of posting your resume out on these job boards, there's not a lot of talent that are posting to the traditional way. So marketing in our world has served as not only for an internal lead gen and branding, but also for recruiting, for reaching out to people, to understanding what are their personas, where's the talent going that you want to attract? And then developing a marketing strategy. And it's not just about lead gen, it's about what are you adding that is different than a person that's working at a job will want to come work for you? And how do you get them to say yes to an interview? And how do you get them enrolled into the opportunity? And that is a marketing thing. And it's not just about sales, it's about everything. Marketing is the center. And it's also internal. It's internal branding. It's internal email campaigns. And if you don't have a team, you're not going to be able to do that stuff. You're not going to be able to do it in a cost effective manner with an outside. That's where I ended up. And I'm not saying that this is an easy thing. So there are nuances. Like I said, you do need someone that's overseeing it in the country as an office manager. I had to find out my own. No one is going to tell you this stuff. So I hope for those that are listening, you're really going to get value here because no one is telling you really the stuff that works. And I am telling you it because that's what I'm about. And I could talk about this all day long, but it's really critical to have checks and balances, though. That's the big thing, too.

Tim Fitzpatrick
How many people are on your overseas team?

Matt Tinney
So on our marketing team, there's actually three.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Three. Okay.

Matt Tinney
And then we have content writers that work for us. And there's four to five that we use that write content for us, depending on the pieces of content that we want. And these are technical people. These are consultants. These are not just content writers. These are specialized consultants that are writing content for value, how to solve problems. And that's how we've been able to build content that's meaningful and not just copy and paste and reword it. Or go to ChatGPT or whatever else. There is a lot of different things that you could do, but I feel that it's really about the people that are working with clients that will add the most value for driving content.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Do you remember how much you were paying the agency that was working for you?

Matt Tinney
It wasn't cheap. I'll just leave it at that.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Okay. Because it sounds like they were doing content writing and...

Matt Tinney
No, that was additional. No, that was the other thing. Content writing was per project. SEO was included, but it was anywhere from 8 to 12 a month.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Oh, yeah. Okay, got it. I imagine you're paying a fraction of that.

Matt Tinney
Yes, and I'm getting everything I need and then some.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Are you driving and managing the team overseas, or does Vikki do that? Who does that?

Matt Tinney
No, that's my role. I do play the role of CMO, I guess you will call it, although I'm not a by trade CMO, but I do. I oversee just the overall strategy and just making sure that we're moving in the right direction from a platform, a tooling perspective. I work with the Office Manager to oversee the technical execution, whether it's a hosting or a new SEO tool or whatever we need to increase our efficiency. So I do. I rely on the team, but from a strategy, from a scheduling, from a social calendar perspective, all that stuff is already planned out. So I make sure that that stuff is being done and it's executed upon. And then I have the technical team lead basically ensure that the execution of that is carried out accordingly.

The Benefits of Creating Content for Your Ideal Client

Tim Fitzpatrick
Got it. So what's the key marketing practice or tactic you keep coming back to?

Matt Tinney
Content people want to see.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I thought you want to say that.

Matt Tinney
Yeah, but it's not watered down content because our audience is highly technical influencers. These are people that are influencing the CIO, the CTO, the CISO. And so it's usually a director level or perhaps a system admin that's influencing the decision maker. And so they're the ones that are in working on the technology. They're working on the nuances. They're trying to figure out why are they running into issues with the migration, or why is this not working as expected? And then googling, and that's when we come up on our blog. Our blog comes up on Google searches. For example, moving from on premise AD to Azure AD. There's really there's a big gap in how to make that happen. So we've got a blog and we do. We get a lot of hits on that. So I feel like it's highly technical content that's solving a very specific problem within the Microsoft space.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I want to pull something out that you just shared because I think it's easy for people to overlook this. You know exactly who this content is being created for. You know that they are highly technical people, which drives the type of content and the reason why your content is highly technical. They're running into issues, they're searching for solutions, and they're finding your blog posts. But you're doing that because you understand who those ideal clients are right off the bat. Super, super important because too many people, I think, don't really understand who their ideal clients are, and they're just randomly or more haphazardly creating content without that really clear strategy behind it. But because you understand who these ideal clients are, you know exactly what type of content to create. And it sounds like that content is generating traffic and leads for you.

Matt Tinney
Yeah, it is. And it didn't happen overnight. And the part that you just mentioned about ideal customer persona is perhaps probably the biggest thing of clarity. And we really isolate ourselves down to a channel, B2B, working with other IT companies, MSPs, integrators, SaaS, or direct clients, right? Legal, healthcare, manufacturing, and really having a different approach to each because they are completely different from a content. But the problems are the same in the technology, you still have glitches, you still have gaps. And so it serves dual purposes with the blog, which is one of the things that I really... That's why we focus so much on blog and content writers outside of our offshore team because the same direct client is going to have the same issues as a partner. It's the same challenges, right? But yeah, you've got to have a focus on it, otherwise, you lose people.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. Do you know how often are you creating blog content?

Matt Tinney
We try to do at least one to two a week.

Tim Fitzpatrick
And how long have you been doing it?

Matt Tinney
We've been doing it since we started our business. Probably the last 15 years. But I would say really, it's been the last probably three years where we really focused on having a rotation of content writers that are technical. And that was challenging to get off the ground. And a lot of it has to do with, again, finding the right people, finding the right mix of technical and visibility. Because that's another thing. If the writer is not... If they don't understand the market and they don't understand the technology that they're writing and they don't understand where to post that content and cross reference it, you're not going to get the full value out of it. You can post it on your blog, but if you're not getting the traffic and the eyeballs because the person doesn't share it out on a 30,000 viewer group on LinkedIn, for example. That's where, too, they come into value is having that outside blog writer because they're going to bring in traffic, they're going to bring in additional visibility that you might not get.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Do you remember how long it took you to start to see results with your content?

Matt Tinney
It's definitely not an overnight thing. I would say 6 to 8 months is what we saw.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. I usually tell people 6 to 12, depends on the industry. But like you said, well, marketing in general is not a switch. You turn on and off. You've got to view it as an investment and you have to do things consistently over time, which is exactly what you guys are doing with your blog content and it's reaping benefits for you.

What Sustainability in Business Really Means

Tim Fitzpatrick

I want to shift gears and talk about sustainability a little bit because you brought this up when we spoke last time, sustainability being a growth challenge for you. What do you mean when you talk about sustainability? And what are you doing to try and address that? Yeah.

Matt Tinney
Sustainability is, I know it's a word that a lot of people use, right? Sturn around. Sustainability is really, for me, it's about having a business that runs without the owner. Got it. At the end of the day, there's an understanding that the owner is probably going to do the sales and all that stuff. But you got to have something that runs without you being so involved. And that is probably the answer that most business owners want. Unfortunately, it's not given to you on a silver platter. And you've got to spend a lot of time and energy, and you have to listen to the right people at the right time. Because if you listen to someone when you're not ready, it's not going to land for you. So I almost feel like you have to take a step back and sometimes you need to reset. And I've had to do that a lot. And also sustainability, it's about having longer term contracts. I mean, everyone wants those, but what's the answer to that? Well, it can mean a lot of different things. It can be managed services. It could mean licensing. It could mean bundling licensing with your professional services. It could mean not taking on part time staffing assignments. But at the end of the day, a lot of these things are entry points into the bigger stuff, so you have to balance it. And also, I think another big thing is partnering with companies and partnering with the right companies. Partnering with companies that might be in a segment or an industry that you're not in, such as federal government. Federal government, usually contracts are a lot longer. So how do you partner with companies in the right ones that create a more sound structure for you to grow on? That's what I mean by sustainability.

Tim Fitzpatrick
So obviously, bringing in your CEO was obviously a big step. Are there other things that you're working on to get your business more sustainable?

Matt Tinney
Pipeline development, which is where the marketing comes in. You have to beef up your marketing, right? And so you have to have the right engine. And it can't just be one engine. Remember when I mentioned being open and receptive, one of the things that was mentioned to me many times was, what about looking at an SDR, a sales development lead and Gen appointment setting approach, as opposed to hiring salespeople? I just always was like, no. I got to a place where it was like, okay, yes, because I had been through so many different things trying to find the right solution and realize that I wasn't being open minded around that particular thing. And so I'm a couple of months in, I hired an STR. And I'm just trying new things that are low risk because we don't have a billion dollars sitting in a bank account, right? And even if I did, I probably would still be going through these exercises. So it's really about having a multi pronged approach for lead gen, also not relying on any one client or partner. Oh, that's a big one. And a lot of companies can say they don't, but when they look, their top 25 or 30 are probably their biggest. So it's really about how do you diversify? How do you build a lead and Gen engine that doesn't require you to be doing all the work? And then how do you build a team under that so that they're doing the technical scoping or sourcing a candidate if it's staffing? I think that's really the direction that is the structure that's being put in. It's a lot easier said than done. There's books out there, how to develop a sales playbook and all that, but you've got to do what's right for your business, and you've got to do it within a budget that you're comfortable with because you can spend a lot of money and blow through a lot of money very quickly. And I don't know about you, but it's all about looking at your return and having it be a lower risk.

Tim Fitzpatrick
So is your sales development rep actively doing cold outreach? Are you feeding them the leads that are coming through marketing or no?

Matt Tinney
No, separate has to be.

Tim Fitzpatrick
That sales development rep, they are straight up hunter.

Matt Tinney
Yeah, but it's a company. See, I didn't hire a person. I hired a company because I don't want to be managing yet another sales component. I want to hold a company accountable. So that's the direction that we took and we're trying it out. And maybe on the next interview, I might have a different viewpoint, but this is a 90 to 120 day at least, a minimum. This is not a 30 day, we'll try it out. And by the way, I'm not a fan of pay per lead.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, I would highly recommend people that are paying per lead.

Matt Tinney
It might work for certain industries, but just for us.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I just find oftentimes you're rewarding for an activity that... So you pay per lead. How do you know where's the incentive for those leads to be high quality leads?

Matt Tinney
Well, yeah, there's a couple that... The reasoning, I just... It's a value alignment thing. I would never want someone to do that to me. So I was like, I couldn't do this. It all has to be value driven.

Tim Fitzpatrick
The other thing that I think is really important to keep in mind as people hire companies to do outreach in an SDR capacity is just like, Hey, what are you doing? How are you doing it? Because how they reach out is a reflection on your company. I think sometimes people go into relationships like that without really understanding how and how they're doing and what they're saying. And it does have the potential to negatively reflect on your company, which I don't think anybody wants. So it's important to understand that process and for them to be open minded and listen to what you have to say as well, right?

Matt Tinney
Right.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I want to highlight a couple of things that you touched on with sustainability because I think these are super easy for people to overlook. You talked about marketing and having a multi channel approach, right? We can't be If we're going to build a sustainable business that is generating consistent repeatable leads, we cannot be reliant on one marketing channel alone.

Matt Tinney
Right. Exactly.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Does that mean that we need to have six different marketing channels? No, it depends on how big you are and how big you want to get. But the vast majority of people that I talk to, they don't need five. They need two to start, three at the most. At least the way I look at it is if you have one lead gen channel, you're riding a unicycle. If the tire goes flat, man, you're screwed. But if you have three or four channels, well, you're riding a three or four Wheeler, if one of those tires goes flat, you're still going to be able to get where you want to go. You might not get there as quickly, but you're still going to get there. So it helps even out those peaks and those valleys when you take a multi channel approach. But you don't need to have ton. But you got to figure out those two or three that are really going to work for you. That's a huge point that you made. The other thing that you pointed out, which is super easy to overlook when business is good, is how vulnerable are we? Where is most of our business coming from? Depending on who you talk to, I think it's a pretty conservative place. It's like, we do not want more than 10 % of our business coming from any one client or any one vendor. Client, especially, I think. I had a conversation with somebody last week and they were talking about, Hey, we just brought on our biggest client, and their parent company now wants to do business. And I said, How much of your business is going to be in those two clients if you sign them? And he didn't tell me the exact number, but he knew exactly where I was going. And he was like, You know what? Hey, it's great that you have that visibility. It's not that you're not going to take the business, but you're going into it knowing, Once I sign this business, I need to be heavily focused on how I'm going to diversify so that I'm not as dependent on it. Because damn, when that big business comes in, you're like, Oh, my God. Business is rock and this is great. But there's a flip side to that.

Matt Tinney
And also understanding what is their end goal? What's the end goal of that client? Okay, they want to do all this business, but is their goal to basically build it internal? We've had this happen. And you know that right from the conversations, but you got to build so that that can be replaced. Because if you don't, you're going to have the ups and downs. That's what I was saying about sustainability. Good point.

Conclusion: Create a Business that Runs Without You

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, I love it. You made some awesome points there, Matt. What's been the biggest factor in the success of your business, would you say? If you had to choose one thing.

Matt Tinney
I think looking in the mirror and say, What am I doing that's not showing up over there? What is it in my business that's having that show up? In other words, looking in the mirror and say, Wow, it stops right here. Because too many times it's this circumstance and it's this and that. And it's this. No, no, no, no, it's right here in the mirror. That's who it is. And that's where it stops. And I think if you can get yourself accountable to yourself, and for everything, the good, the bad and the ugly that shows up in your business, you will be much more solid and structured and you will be able to sleep at night. Because the minute that it's someone else's responsibility for why this and that showed up... Listen, if you've got a well structured leadership team with accountability and checks and balances, that should protect the business. But if things show up, that's an opportunity for you to look in the mirror and say, What is it that's showing up out there that's within me? Bottom line. And it ain't easy. But that's where I look. Those people look the other way. They don't want to look at that. They want to fire the executive that made the call. But my question is, what did you do to empower the executive that made that call? What had them not come to you as the leader from the start? So there's all the behavioral things, and I do. I want to look in the mirror and say, what could I do better? What could I have I done?

Tim Fitzpatrick
I love it. So I got one more question for you before we start to wrap things up. And that's knowing what you know now, is there anything you'd do differently?

Matt Tinney
That's a good question. I answered this earlier. I think it's about bringing on a partner probably earlier on that was better at some areas of the business than I ever will be, or that I don't enjoy. You got to delegate out the things you don't enjoy because that's going to show up. So that would be my big thing.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I love it. Matt, you've shared a ton of great stuff today. I know that there's some nuggets people are going to be able to pull from this conversation. Where can people learn more about you?

Matt Tinney
Our website, windowsmanagementexperts.com.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Windowsmanagementexperts.com. Go check it out. We will make sure that that is in the show notes as well. Matt, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. I've enjoyed connecting with you. Those of you that are watching, listening, I appreciate you as well. We have been talking all about revenue acceleration, business growth, and how you can do it, how you can avoid some of the pitfalls that others have made. So if you want to figure out what's slowing down your growth right now, you can do that over at RevenueRoadblockScorecard.com. Over there, you will be able to discover and assess which of the nine revenue roadblocks are slowing down your growth. You can also always connect with us over at RialtoMarketing.com. Be happy to chat with you, so reach out there. Again, thank you. Until next time, take care.


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About the author, Tim Fitzpatrick

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