Starting Over, Staying Strong: Reinvention & Resilience in Business

Starting Over, Staying Strong: Reinvention & Resilience in Business

Tim Fitzpatrick
Welcome to the Rialto Marketing podcast. Today's episode is a Revenue Acceleration Series interview where we talk to seven-figure B2B business owners and their growth-focused executives who are actively trying to grow their business and get to the next level. We talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly so that you can learn from their experience. Hi, I am Tim Fitzpatrick with Rialto Marketing, where we believe marketing shouldn't be difficult. Thank you so much for taking the time to tune in. I am super excited to have Jim McNeese with me today from C2XCEL. Jim, welcome and thanks for being here.

Jim McNeese
Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having me. I'm honored.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Absolutely. I am excited to dig into this with you today. Before we do that, I want to ask you just a few rapid fire questions to kick things off. Are you ready to jump in with both feet?

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Okay, man. So very quickly, what do you do and how long have you been doing it?

Jim McNeese
I am a technology consultant company, helping business solve business problems, business needs via technology. I've been in the industry for about 25 years now, but on the indirect side with my own company, about 18 years.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Very cool. What's the most important lesson you've learned in running your business? There's so many lessons, but if you had to pick one, what would it be?

Jim McNeese
Probably be consistent. You have to be a self motivator, which is difficult at times. I think you need to surround yourself with other business-like-minded people. So when there's tough days, you can lean on them, and we're all going through the same issues, problems. So it's nice to lean on others.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I love it. Consistency over time. Super important. A lot of people can be consistent for a short period of time, but if we're going to be successful, we got to be consistent long term. We know business has its ups and downs. Do you have any mantra or something motivational that you say to yourself or share with people on your team to push through those times?

Jim McNeese
Yes. Again, time to time, we have to remind ourselves this is why we have our company. If we can't do the tough stuff, we wouldn't have a company. This is our value add to our clients. No one wants to do the dirty work or the tough stuff. When we get down or it's difficult or we can't get something done. I just remind the team, Hey, this is why we do what we do.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, I love it. Jim, you had mentioned you've been in the industry for 25 years. Your current company, C2XCEL, you started about eight and a half-ish years ago, right?

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir.

Tim Fitzpatrick
What drove you to start your own company?

Jim McNeese
I've always wanted to own my own company since I was, I think, in high school. I used to buy and sell cars all the time. I was always trying to hustle something. I've always been in that mindset. Then when I left Corporate America, I had two companies, but it's always with another partner. One of them decided to go back to Corporate America just because it's a grind. Then the other one was that I sold the company, and now I decided I want to own my own company and without partners.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. So decided to go it solo.

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir.

Staying Motivated to Rebuild in Business

Tim Fitzpatrick
During our pre-interview, you had mentioned that, and you just touched on this a little bit, that you started over twice, and you've still been able to build successful businesses. What kept you going during those times, and how did you just stay motivated to rebuild?

Jim McNeese
Well, at the time, I was a single dad, so trying to build something to keep our family going. I had two boys, and they drive me every day. They still drive me. I couldn't fail. I couldn't let them down. Years later, I told them I went to $100,000 in credit card debt. I explained to them all the tough times, and they're like, Dad, we never noticed anything. That was tough.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, I can only imagine that. I think, well, we all have times like that. Some are slightly different for each of us. But at those times, did you ever think about going back to corporate?

Jim McNeese
No, sir.

Tim Fitzpatrick
You were just like, I got to push through this.

Jim McNeese
I knew I could do it. Again, who else do you want to gamble on than yourself? Who else is going to step up and do what they need to every day? I could have gone back to corporate America and probably got 100K base, but that's not me. That's not my passion. I knew I could do it. It took me three years to get above water.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Wow. How long had you been in business when that initial I got to rebuild happened?

Jim McNeese
Like I said, this was my third company. The company before that, is seven, eight years in that company, and I had to sell off for personal reasons. And so I had to start from zero.

Tim Fitzpatrick
From scratch.

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir. Yeah. But I knew I had the connections, went back to old clients and started to grind again. That's another thing I was thinking about earlier to tell you is you can't get complacent in this business because you never know. The economy, it could be... There's a million things that could disrupt your business, and you have to be consistently grinding and looking at it.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I interviewed somebody. This was quite a while ago... About success. And one of the things he talked about was just complacency is the biggest issue that people run into with success. They get to this point where they feel successful and they get complacent, and that complacency just kills it. Because another thing that's coming top of mind to me, and I don't know who originally said it, but it's like, this two shall pass, right? And that means good and bad. When it's good, hey, enjoy it because it's going to pass. When it's bad, it's going to pass, too. So we absolutely, man, we cannot get complacent. We've got to constantly be just... You constantly have to have your eyes on the ball, right? It reminds me to when I originally started Rialto Marketing, I have had multiple shifts in this business. But when I originally started it, we were selling mobile applications into the K12 education space. And I was building on an app platform, very similar to a website building platform. And this was about two and a half, three years in Apple changed their publishing guidelines. And overnight, all of these app building platforms could no longer publish. And they worked through it, and we were eventually able to republish. But that was a point for me where I was like...

Jim McNeese
Eye-opening experience.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I got to do something different. My livelihood is heavily tied to the policies of Apple and Google. And I have no control of that. Frankly, to put it bluntly, they don't care about small companies with their policies. They just don't care. So that was one of the times that I started to make a shift in my business. It's those times, you just don't foresee some of those things coming down the pipe. You just have to be prepared for, Hey, when they happen, I'm going I'm trying to figure it out.

Jim McNeese
Yeah. In our industry, I tell a lot of my competitors, you got to diversify. You got to diversify TSDs, you got to diversify carriers because you just never know what could happen. Anything could happen.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. Well, in a lot of our businesses, we just need to look at those places where we need redundancies. Because, again, it's easy to get complacent and go, Gosh, Well, this vendor that I'm buying from is a great vendor, but there's a lot of things beyond our control, and we need to be prepared for those things if and when they happen. Well, and the pandemic is a great example of that, too. Companies that were heavily invested in specific verticals, travel, hospitality, if they didn't have other sources of revenue, that dried up overnight. Which is tough.

Choosing to Outsource Marketing 

Tim Fitzpatrick
You recently started exploring options to expand your marketing efforts. I'm curious. I want to break this down a little bit. What initially drove you to do this? And what have you learned in the process?

Jim McNeese
So I'm going to step back a little bit because when we first started C2XCEL, it took a few years to get up and going. Then once I started getting... I'm the type of guy. I'm zero to 60. I'm Barry Bonds. I'm not going to hit base hits. I'm going for home runs every time, which is not... This is how it's been all my life. That's just how I am. I hired a bunch of sales reps right off the gate after it got past the three years, and partnered with At&T, things were going smooth, and then the bottom fell out of the partnership with AT&T. Long story short, those sales reps didn't pan out. I invested a lot of money in sales steps. So they left. I started doing it on my own again. Again, slow and steady, which is not me, but I didn't have the overhead, and I didn't have to babysit. I've done this multiple times. Then I've tried to hire again. It didn't work out. That's when I started the marketing campaign saying, If I can get somebody else, third party, making phone calls, once I get the lead, we have about a close ratio, % close ratio. That's how we changed and I haven't had good experience with it.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Are you still doing that or did you stop?

Jim McNeese
No, sir. I had a contract. Seven-month contract, very painful long contract, and finished that and lost about 30 grand.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Doing it?

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Where do you think things went wrong there? Because I think there's things for people to glean from that experience. And by the way, you are not alone on a beach by yourself there. I talk to so many people that have run into similar issues.

Jim McNeese
Yeah. And again, it seems like since COVID, I get more emails and more LinkedIn about lead generation and how they can bring you hundreds of leads a month. And I don't know what's going on. But the clients that we focus on, enterprise multi-location, a call center is not going to get the attention, the clients that we're looking for. But I decided to do more transactional, drop the number of seats, number of employees, I tried to do that, and it just doesn't work. They don't show up for phone calls. I listen to some of the recordings, and they're pushing the client, and then they don't want to have a conversation with me. So just not a good experience. I've tried it two or three times thinking I'm going to get a different result. So what they call the insanity.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You... I talk to a lot of people that have tried outsourcing outbound, and it often doesn't work great. And I think it depends on the situation, but some of the most common things that I see popping up are just... It could be how they're incentivized, right? They're certainly promising things, making big promises, and they typically under deliver, which always leads me back to, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. But their incentive is to drive results. And so I think oftentimes they end up cutting corners to try and get results or generate leads, no matter what type of quality those leads are. And so you end up having these calls and you're like, Man, these people aren't qualified at all. We're sending the leads. I think one of the other challenges, too, is, and this doesn't happen all the time, but I see it fairly often where just the targeting is off, the messaging is not there. So they're targeting very broadly because they a larger pool, then we can pull in more leads from it. But it's really difficult to target broad. The message ends up not resonating. We got to go narrow. And I think most outbound, and frankly, most marketing agencies want to target more broadly as well. You can't do that.

Jim McNeese
Yeah. And that's where I take responsibility because we have access to 400, 500 vendors, partners, carriers worldwide. So we do anything from UCAS, C-CAS, mobility, physical security, cyber security, I mean, Pots lines, Internet. There's just so much that we can do. Anything to do with IT or telecom, we have a vendor partner carrier that can handle it. For myself, I want to cast that big net because if I come to you, Hey, Tim, we're reaching out to you about UCAS or C-CAS. I just switched over to another carrier. If I go into one direct, if you just sign, I lose the deal. My thought coming in with the big old hug that I would get more, and it's my fault. Part of it is the message.

Tim Fitzpatrick
See, one of the shifts that you can... Because the reality is with marketing, with outbound, you're always testing, right? And you're never done testing. A lot of it doesn't work, but when you find the things that work, the returns are very good. And it makes, you can't find the things that work unless you work through the things that don't. And one of the things that I think you could have done in this situation is target one of your offerings. So choose, hey, what can we lead with that's going to help us get our foot in the door and be hyper-focused on your outbound on getting that and with a very specific market. And then that opens up. Because all you want are the conversations to start, right? That's a way that you can narrow the scope of it with that particular campaign rather than going wide. Because even when we look at larger companies, the Apples the Amazons of the world. It looks like they target broadly, but their campaigns aren't. They have all kinds of campaigns going, and those campaigns are targeted very specifically. Targeting broadly, especially for smaller companies, it just doesn't work because the message to targeting broadly costs a lot of money, and it takes a lot time. And great, we don't have that money. Based on that experience, what would you do differently moving forward? So if you were... Whatever it was, let's say we're looking at outsourcing any part of your marketing and sales effort, what would you do differently next time?

Jim McNeese
One, and that's another thing I When I hired the firm, I asked them, do they understand what I sell? Do you understand telecom? Do you understand technology? They said, yes. I don't think they did. And I'm not great at educating someone like that, teaching them how to sell it. When I hire somebody, I expect them to know how to sell it. So that's one of my negatives, and that's one of my flaws. So I take responsibility for that. So if I ever were to do, I doubt I'd do that again. But if I did something similar, I would find somebody that could educate them better than what I did.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Got it. It's interesting you bring that up, Jim, because the way I think about it, when we look at building a marketing engine, the first thing that we look at is strategy. And I think of strategy as the fuel for the engine. And within strategy, you've got your target market. Who are you targeting? Who are your ideal clients? And then you have your messaging after that. And what are you going to say those people to attract and engage them? And I see a lot of companies approaching, whether it's outbound or an agency, and they don't have that information. And I feel like that's the fuel that we need to be able to provide the people that are doing that work for us. We can't expect them to to do it. And so when you can approach somebody like that and say, Hey, here's our ideal clients, and here's our messaging, that's what they need. If you're good at sales, you can sell anything, right? You just need the information. If you're good and you've got the information, well, you're going to pick up on it and you can do it. But we need to be able to arm them with that information. We cannot rely on them to do it. And it happens all the time, all the time. So kudos to you for seeing that and being like, yeah, I need to do this different next time around. I also think, too, that especially when it comes to marketing and sales, if the promises they're making are large, that is a red flag to me because there are too many things within life in general, but marketing and sales, especially, there are too many things beyond our control that impact the results that we experience. Somebody saying, well, I'm going to get you on the front page of Google. Really? You can't guarantee that. There's no way. No way at all. So thank you for sharing that, Jim.

Staying Strong and Resilient in Business

Tim Fitzpatrick
I have a couple last questions for you before we wrap up. You mentioned this to me in the pre-interview, and I appreciate you talking about this, but one of the things you shared with me was that you have dyslexia. How has that impacted how you approach work?

Jim McNeese
So growing up, no one talked about dyslexia, and I never knew I had dyslexia. And the way I found out was, I told you, I have two boys. They're 21 and 20 now. When they're at third grade, the teacher called us and said, Hey, do you mind if we test the boys? And we're like, Sure. We thought we think they have dyslexia. Sure enough, they did.

Tim Fitzpatrick
So both of them.

Jim McNeese
Both of them. And I was like, that explains a lot. So I grew up just thinking I was not as smart as everybody else. I've I've never been a strong reader. I'm more about dollars and cents and math. I'm a math guy. I can figure ROIs, but speaking proper English a lot of times is not my forte. I was always very nervous talking to somebody, and I would overthink it. Even this interview right now, I think too much of what I'm going to say instead of just talking because I'm worried about, do I say it wrong or am I going to backwards, or it's just been a struggle for years. And I've just learned to adapt. This is who I am. And I think people, I think they expect more, but they really don't. And I'm able to communicate. I'm able to run a company. Could I have found better ways to deal with the dyslexia? Yes. But again, we didn't even know about it until years later.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because it's like, one of the things I always... So I have two girls, and one of the things I'm always reiterating to them is like, Guys, everybody's got problems. I mean, it's so easy to look at social media, which is a highlight reel, and it just makes most people feel like garbage. And it's like, no, nobody's perfect. We all got issues, multiple issues. Issues that we're dealing with. You just don't always have visibility to it. We can allow those things to hold us back, or we can choose that, no, I'm going to deal I'm going to deal with this, and this is how I'm going to do it, and I'm going to push forward. That's what you chose to do, which I respect and admire you doing that because I have no idea what that's like to be dyslexic, because that's not something that I struggle with, but I can only imagine what it's like, right?

Jim McNeese
I think I put more pressure on myself thinking that I have to know everything. I have to be perfect because you're a CEO of a company.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah.

Jim McNeese
Anybody can be a CEO of a company. I could do is start a LLC. It doesn't take much. But I put it on myself. It's like, okay, I have to know it all. I have to lead my employees. I have to be able to educate my clients. But they're humans, too. Like you said, everybody has something that they're dealing with. So just be who you are and be upfront. Hey, I have this issue.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. Well, and gosh, not to go down a totally different path, but with AI, I have a Custom GPT and ChatGPT that I call the effective communicator. I put some parameters in there, and I use it all the time to just either write emails for me and then I tweak them or depending on what the email is, I'll write the email and I pop it in there. It's phenomenal. It helped me see things that I'm not seeing. It takes the emotion out of communication sometimes, depending on what I'm trying to communicate. I'm just thankful we have tools at our disposal that can help us with whatever it is we might be dealing with.

Jim McNeese
Have you heard of Lavender?

Tim Fitzpatrick
No.

Jim McNeese
Look up Lavender. So you can go and write down, let's just say I'll send an email to you, request in a meeting or whatever it is. You can put it in lavender and it will grade you. I think it's out of 100. 68. You have to put it, say, into a fifth grade language language, and it'll help you correct it. Every time you change it, it'll show you increasing your grade, your score.

Tim Fitzpatrick
I'll have to check that out because I did that in that GPT. Write it I either put a third to fifth grade level, something like that. But the other thing I loaded in there, because I also use Grammarly, and I've used Grammarly for a long time.

Jim McNeese
I do.

Tim Fitzpatrick
But the thing I love about the Custom GPT is I loaded in how I communicate. So I loaded in a bunch of data from podcast interviews, from things I've typed, videos, all kinds of stuff, so that it knows how I communicate, and then the output is how I speak and how I tend to say things. And so that's one of the things I really like about that, that you don't get from a tool like Grammarly, at least at this point. But, yeah, thankful that we have things at our fingertips now, right?

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir.

Conclusion

Tim Fitzpatrick
Well, this has been fantastic, Jim. I really appreciate you taking the time. One last question. Knowing what you know now, is there anything you would do differently?

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir. I would have hired an EA a lot earlier than I did. I literally just hired an EA three months ago, and my life has changed. I'm engaged.

Tim Fitzpatrick
An executive assistant?

Jim McNeese
Professionally and personally. Yes, sir.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Okay, got it. And is that person, are they virtual?

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir. They're remote. Okay, cool. I talk to her every morning, and she lays out She manages my schedule. She manages my calendar, she manages my inbox. She runs my life now. Anytime I travel, she'll book everything. It's taken-

Tim Fitzpatrick
Does she handle personal and professional?

Jim McNeese
Yes, sir.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Very cool.

Jim McNeese
Anything I ask her to do, especially with the marketing stuff, she's going through Canvas and putting research and all that stuff using AI.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Interesting.

Jim McNeese
It's been a godsend.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Was it difficult to give up your email inbox?

Jim McNeese
Not at all. I'm just kidding. Very much. We're still working throughout the kinks because I'm so anal about it. If I get an email, I need to answer. If you send me an email, I need to get it out ASAP. We're working through, and she's already sent it, but I haven't seen anything. My anxiety is still a little bit there. We're working through how she's notifying me and categories, everything, and it's much better.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Very cool. I love it. Okay. So if you don't have an assistant, you need to hire one like now.

Jim McNeese
They say if you don't have an assistant, you are the assistant.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, you're right.

Jim McNeese
That was a good point.

Tim Fitzpatrick
You're right. Where can people connect with you and learn more about you, Jim?

Jim McNeese
Website, C2XCELcom. Make sure it's C2XCELcom. Or find me on LinkedIn.

Tim Fitzpatrick
Awesome. So we're going to C2XCEL, and then your LinkedIn profile is Jim McNeese. We'll make sure both of those get in the show notes so people can just click on that to connect. But if you enjoyed what we talked about today, I'm going to connect with Jim. I've enjoyed connecting with you twice now. So thank you for taking the time. Those of you that are watching, listening, I appreciate you. You can always connect with us over at rialtomarketing.com. The other resource we have for you is over at RevenueRoadblockScorecard.com. When we help clients build their marketing engine, we help them focus on nine critical areas of marketing. If you want to know which of those areas is a roadblock for you, that's where you can do it. Takes less than five minutes, so take advantage of it. And until next time, take care.